Debian and corporate support
I read about Steven J. Vaughan’s article on which he tries to explain why you don’t see as much corporate support in Debian as you see in other places. The conclusion of Steven’s analisys, it seems, is that Debian is inmature. I will attempt to respond to it from a Debian perspective.
Ok, you don’t really see that adjective mentioned in his article, but it is what every paragraph in it is trying to tell us. Even the one paragraph that contains a positive remark doesn’t escape from a reminder that we always do things “our own, cranky way”. And of course, the article is finished with a sincere recommendation to flee away from Debian. Wow Steven, you must really hate Debian don’t you? Ok, to be fair, I assume you have reasons for what you say. Nevertheless I think those reasons are flawed.
As a Debian developer, I’d like to try my humble attempt at clarifying some of the common misconceptions about what Debian is, that seem to be the basis for Steven’s disapproval of our ways.
The root of the problem seems to be that you measure maturity of an organization by the amount of internal collisions you see from the outside. However, every big organization in the western world has internal disputes. So what is it that makes Debian different?
- We don’t hide problems (remember our Social Contract?). In practice, this works at two levels: 1) we don’t try to hide our internal discussions; and 2) individuals have a general feeling they can speak out (instead of repressing their opinion to avoid displeasing their boss). How many examples of this do you see in corporate world? Right, you can’t see a thing except when you’re inside The Walls.
- Our common goals are quality and freedom. This is what puts us together above our petty differences. Some disagree on what ‘quality’ means; some disagree on what ‘freedom’ means. Some even think the most efficient way to archieve them is to make small compromises. But it still boils down to these. Then, what ties a corporation and prevents it from falling appart? That’s right, money. That is their common goal. Debian benefits from money, equipment and even developers hired to improve specific areas. We’re grateful to those who contribute! But money isn’t everything you see? For one thing, we never let money condition our agenda. We have higher goals here… we deliver sustained quality and freedom; and outsiders can rely on us to continue doing so, no matter if we have funding problems or if -insert evil company based in Redmond here- wants to buy us out. How many partners can promise such an high reliability?
- Our value is our strong, technically-capable user-developer base. Thousands of enthusiasts working together in furthering our goals. In the article you seem surprised that “despite all this, Debian does keep going”. Well, as long as our highest value stands, Debian will continue to not just keep going, but to show leadership in the development of the codebase that most users (be it individual users or big players like Canonical, HP or IBM) rely on.
I hope this helps you understand Debian a bit better. You don’t have to like what we do; but at least try to respect our position and apply fair judgement to it.
February 3, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Agreed. Debian has several core ideals - freedom, and maintaining the original views of the Free Software Foundation, as well as producing a quality operating system.
Debian’s self management, or internal goals should not have anything to do with corporations using its code. Nor should it have anything to do with the fact that these said corporations could easily donate either money, or equipment to Debian in appreciation of Debian’s hard work.
What it basically boils down to is greed, and corporate greed. Modern business means taking what you can get for nothing, using it, and not acknowledging the hard work by others. This is the whole mentality of our modern society.
February 4, 2008 at 12:50 am
Very well said.
February 4, 2008 at 1:03 am
How many distros have come and gone since Debian was first released? All those sexy distros are memories now; Stormix, Corel Linux, and once big stars are faded now: Gentoo and Turbolinux. Yet Debian remains.
I can’t code to save my life but I have used Debian for a long time. Its rock solid and just works. I have never had problem with packages from stable.
I have have never encountered cranky Debian developers. No RTFMs or being flamed as n00b. Debian developers are some of the friendliest and helpful around.
February 4, 2008 at 3:19 am
Fair enough, but what about his point that if you want to donate money or hardware to the project there is no-one to say “we’d love you to contribute a server” afaik (I’m a Debian newbie).
February 4, 2008 at 3:46 am
Bravo.
February 4, 2008 at 8:10 am
Hi to all Debian’ers
I couldn’t write this text better then it is. In my word expression … when someone is talking about freedom … i always have in mind Debian.
Great work. The best distro of all time.
February 4, 2008 at 8:34 am
I am not familiar with debian ways of developing but it seems to me you read a lot more negativity into Steven’s article than I did. Why is that? Maybe you know more about Steven and know his true opinion, but I don’t think your interpretation of his article is accurate when looking at the article isolatedly. What I don’t understand is why you can’t form a foundation with very strict rules, that compy with your ideology, and let companies support you through it. In my world compensation for travel expenses and things like that is not payment for work. The “board” could fix an amount for a specific seminar or other gatherings that will be divided between all applying in a predefined way (equally or proportionally to expenses). This will of course take som organisation, but I’m sure someone is willing to do that job too.
February 4, 2008 at 8:44 am
Wilfred: Debian accepts donations of hardware and money, see: http://www.debian.org/donations
If you donate specific hardware, chances are it will improve support of Debian for that hardware. What we don’t do is, however, compromise our goals based on those donations; and if you donate an excessive amount of money (e.g. $100.000.000), chances are we wouldn’t find any use for it. Our development process works just fine without it, and donations are used for maintenance of fixed costs (e.g. domain registration, travel expenses, etc). Maybe we’d spend it all in publicity or something; who knows?
P.S. welcome on-board
February 4, 2008 at 8:45 am
Wilfred and Steven J. Vaughn-Nichols: if you would like to donate money or hardware to Debian, please visit http://www.debian.org/donations.
February 4, 2008 at 11:14 am
I always tell people that want stability to take Debian.
I was in doubt a long time when leaving Suse and I fell for
the so much hated Ubuntu. Using it for some years now I know
that it is Debian with some peculiarities, most of them I do not like.
I will stick a while with Ubuntu but Debian is really the only distro that
“lives” the word freedom.
I only find the forum a little difficult to use.
The article by Vaughan is not that bad but I agree one could draw wrong conclusions.
Jan
February 4, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I have been using Debian for the last 4 years and I never had any problems with the stable release.
It’s easy to use, very reliable and if I need help with something all I have to do is go to GOOGLE, type my question, debian. I always get some response to see me through.
I personally offer my sincere thanks to the folks that make this possible.
February 4, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Debian is my favorite choice for GNU/LINUX server deployment, and OpenBSD is my favorite choice for BSD Family server deployment. Both OSes are excellent, and everything in their documentation, then everything just work!
February 4, 2008 at 6:38 pm
The point is Debian isn’t just another distro, because Debian is THE DISTRO.
Nothing, I repeat, nothing can be compare to Debian GNU/Linux Universe.
Just check out platforms supported, packages available, etc
February 4, 2008 at 7:45 pm
IMO, if Debian has a biggest weakness, it is not its lack of corporate-ness. That is a strength because it can’t be subject to a hostile takeover. It is the sheer scope of the number of platforms it supports.
My only recommendation to change Debian would be to reduce the number of GNU/Linux supported architectures, and upgrade the Debian with NetBSD kernel support so that all the least used architectures would have to (get to) use the
After all, these fringe architectures aren’t being used as personal desktops, they don’t need all desktop features, and IMO NetBSD would make the porting value to expense ratio easier. Look what Debian Sidux can do by only supporting 2 architectures.
February 4, 2008 at 8:12 pm
decentralist:
you don’t say why the many supported architectures is a weakness.
If you beleive it’s that they prolonge the release cycle of Debian you
should probably think again. Someone with better insight should
probably elaborate further on this, but from what I understand most
release critical bugs does not come from debian supporting many
architectures.
February 4, 2008 at 9:43 pm
If I were a company two things would attract me to Debian:
1) It is vast, runs almost anywhere, and has a genuinely good track record for security. The quality and quantity of the code is a big plus, if you want to use a piece.
2) Debian have an almost pathological approach to keeping the code base clean, which means that I can base my code on Debian and be pretty sure I won’t get sued. Obviously you do due diligence and all that, but starting with Debian should make your life easier.
One thing would put me off: Where is the head office, why can’t I take the CEO out to dinner/golf? Some companies haven’t understood open-source and still need to have someone hold their hand, Red Hat are doing very well as a result.
Look at the most charismatic Distros, they are all Debian based. Caononical get it, Mepis get it, Xandros get it. Look at the people building on Debian I think even HP get it.
Debian is a dsitro but more importantly it’s a community meta project. Red Hat/SUSE are only a distros…
February 4, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Bravo to all of this. I hated Debian when I was a Linux newbie last year, until I installed it on my laptop and decided to play around with it. Yes, it has its quirks, but now it is my favorite distro.
February 4, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Robert, welcome in blogosphere
February 5, 2008 at 12:43 am
I just want to repeat “I couldn’t write this text better than it is. In my word expression … when someone is talking about freedom … i always have in mind Debian.” after 10 years using Debian and producing a lot inside this wonderful word called Debian. Please maintain this liberty for ever!
Tarcisio